Author Topic: HEUI Pump  (Read 19308 times)

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Offline fski2828

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HEUI Pump
« on: May 28, 2015, 09:13:55 AM »
I have a 330 Cat in my 2004 that I bought new at about 51,000 miles. Now I have 62,180 on the coach and looking at installing another heiu pump. At 3400 bucks a pop I can't afford to use the coach. Had a Cat tech on the answer series and for 29 buck all he could tell me is about oil change. Now my coach is at a Freightliner garage. That was the closest place when the engine quit. Any help would be appreciated

 I have a 04 39L Discovery.

Frank Petrowski fski2828@yahoo.com
« Last Edit: May 28, 2015, 07:50:59 PM by Brett Wolfe »

Offline ziggyh

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Re: HEUI Pump
« Reply #1 on: May 29, 2015, 07:38:57 AM »
Frank, not sure what type of help you are looking for.  Tell us what your problem is or what symptoms you are experiencing and if there is any related history.  eg. does it run rough, not starting, hard starting, stalling, black smoke, no power ect..

Best I could understand from your post is that you bought the motorhome new and you are on your second pump replacement, one at 51,000 and now at 62,180. and its expensive.
ZiggyH

2007 Revolution LE
C9

Offline fski2828

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Re: HEUI Pump
« Reply #2 on: June 03, 2015, 04:26:14 AM »
Would like to know what makes the pump go bad. Drove it ti Camping World at Hope Mills NC to get ferer reparied. No problem for the 100 mile run. went to pick the motorhome up,while there decieded to put in some propane. Started the vechile up and it started up but sounded like a cement mixer.After thr propane was loaded it would not start . Called a wecker towed to a FReightliner dealer They said the heiu pump was bad,replaced pump and still will not start. 2 weeks and still can not find what is wrong

Offline Brett Wolfe

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Re: HEUI Pump
« Reply #3 on: June 03, 2015, 06:26:26 AM »
From your next to last sentence, it appears that the HEUI pump is not the cause of the no-start condition, as it still does not start after pump replacement.

So, the root problem still needs to be diagnosed. I would start by checking fuel pressure from the lift pump.  Something as simple as a loose primary fuel filter, loose fitting or hole in fuel line (all on suction side of lift pump) could cause this. 

Offline ziggyh

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Re: HEUI Pump
« Reply #4 on: June 03, 2015, 09:32:47 AM »
Sometimes when a HEUI pump fails it sends metal debris into the injectors so that can compound your problems, when that happens  the injectors need to be pulled and the head needs to be flushed and any damaged injectors replaced.

As Brett indicated, sounds like your problems may be elsewhere, after confirming your fuel supply, you need about 25 psi fuel pressure when cranking the engine and around 65 idling, engine oil pressure a minimum of 2 psi,and about 850 psi injection actuation pressure before the ecm will try and fire the injectors so if all of the above conditions are met I would check for an injector signal, using cat check the values from the engine sensors and DTC's
ZiggyH

2007 Revolution LE
C9

Offline Brett Wolfe

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Re: HEUI Pump
« Reply #5 on: June 03, 2015, 02:42:41 PM »
Yes, as Ziggy said, if you continue to drive with a failing HEUI pump until it just won't go any further, it is possible that the injectors have metal from the pump failure in them. 

But, this is something that any technician familiar with the engine would absolutely KNOW. Parts changers-- maybe not.

Offline David.e.atherton

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Re: HEUI Pump
« Reply #6 on: June 13, 2015, 04:30:19 PM »
Subject: HEUI Pumps,the HEUI pump is not a problem as many would think, it is the lack of understanding problem at hand. Troubleshooting not complete or inexperience tech.

Heard stories about metal in the system. Yes there has been few cases and was corrected.

Good example HEUI pump replaced now engine will not run. There are many reasons why electronic engines have problems and parts are changed out before it runs again.

The fuel system and engine oil pressure, regulators, sensors all play a very heavy role. let me know where I can help with your problem. 

Dave Atherton Retired Cat Mechanic.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2015, 04:48:02 PM by Brett Wolfe »

Offline Gentleman Adventurer

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Re: HEUI Pump
« Reply #7 on: August 02, 2015, 08:48:28 PM »
Hello All;
First let me say thanks for all the information I have learned over the past few days lurking here.
If all goes well, I am buying my first motor home, a 2006 Fleetwood Expedition, 62k miles Cat C7, Allison MH3000.
It's going to a shop for a prepurchase inspection of the Chassis/Engine/Drive train, Including fluids.

I have to admit this HEUI thing has me concerned. I called CAT customer service with the serial number and they have no record of a change or problem. It is a June 2005 year manufactured Engine.
I seem to have read that some where in 2005, CAT changed out the pump to a slightly different one that wouldn't come apart. But I can't seem to find when that occurred.

In looking at the Engine prefix list I see in 2005 they changed from a KAL prefix to an SAP prefix.

Is that an indication of when that occurred?

 A long story for a short question, but between this and the fan bearing, I'm almost tempted to get a Cummings. (they have their own problems, but at least are still being manufactured)

Thanks for the help.
Keith

Offline ziggyh

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Re: HEUI Pump
« Reply #8 on: August 03, 2015, 08:58:56 AM »
Will agree that all manufacturers have problems, as far as worrying about parts, I can say I have not had any problems with what ever I have needed for my c9 cat and it is an 06 build.

As with any brand maintenance is important and with a HEUI system it is a little more important to keep on top of the oil changes and the oil used.
ZiggyH

2007 Revolution LE
C9

Offline David.e.atherton

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Re: HEUI Pump
« Reply #9 on: August 03, 2015, 06:35:33 PM »
Gentleman, there is no change in the HEUI pump with different s/n numbers. Everything
will bolt up and there is no settings with this pump from one engine to another engine.
As far as Cat engines and lack of parts made this is a incorrect statement. Cat just stopped
making on road engines but the same engines are used daily in off road equipment. Your
engine if you wanted to buy one in crate( new engine will come from same engine s/n
and A/R number family). You can buy any part new or reman at a Cat Dealer. Like other
Cat engines there has been up dates with some parts and electronics. Again there are no
setting to adjust when changeout HEUI pump. Question how did they determine HEUI
Pump was bad because in most cases troubleshooting is not correct in replacement of
Pump.  Dave Atherton Retired Cat Mechanic

Offline Gentleman Adventurer

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Re: HEUI Pump
« Reply #10 on: August 04, 2015, 08:33:29 PM »
David,
This is what I read and trying to determine if it is true, that's part of the reason for the post;

Quote
http://www.irv2.com/forums/f124/caterpillar-c7-diesel-engine-105467-6.html
Only trouble was at 42k the Huei pump failed and sent metal into injectors. All was covered by cat at the time. I've heard the early pumps have a too thin shaft that starts to cavitate and eventually fail. Newer models fixed this after 2005. I asked later if they repaired it with the updated pump or an older. The dealer (different) said looks like old part number went back in. Not a big worry he said, aftermarket has it solved cheaper and more reliable.


Looks like an internal change maybe?

Quote
As far as Cat engines and lack of parts made this is a incorrect statement. Cat just stopped
making on road engines but the same engines are used daily in off road equipment.


I never said there was a lack of parts. I'm merely concerned about the expense of those parts, the labor cost for replacing them, and not having an easy way to do the work myself.

So back to my original question, What change in the engine caused the prefix to change from a KAL prefix to an SAP prefix?

One other question Dave. In reading through CAT related maintenance it seems like dirty oil is the biggest contributor to a failed HEUI. Any insight on the way to prevent a problem?

If dirty oil is a common cause, would you recomend a shorter change schedule?

Thanks
Keith

Offline David.e.atherton

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Re: HEUI Pump
« Reply #11 on: August 05, 2015, 07:22:34 PM »
First of all will answer the questions two fold. Earlier HEUI pumps had some problems
but not putting metal into the injection system as many people down grade Cats HEUI
system. The metal in question came from the pump drive gear that runs off the front
gear train that runs off crankshaft. Second the HEUI pump has a variable pitch pistion
that looks like a chamber of a six shooter and very harden Pistons move in an out
of the harden chamber to create the high oil pressure to injectors. The kind of metal you
are talking about will not come with in the HEUI pump housing itself. Third going deeper
Into above statement metal in injection from failed pump. Someone put the cart before
the horse. There had been a batch of injectors that had problems that caused metal to
get into the injection system. And several cat bulletins were sent out on this problem.
This was a minor event and was corrected very soon after bought into the open . Going
Into the oils used in a Electronic engine very big 100 percent failure on incorrect oil
used or extended service times. Brett can cover the oil break down in a more complete
Form. Let's talk parts, today parts list price the same for all dealers. Question about older
Parts cost more than new parts this is a incorrect statement. Older cat parts are not
marked up because of age. Cat has a reman program where it will save a contractor
lots of money because reman parts have same spec's as a new part and same warranty.
Again I have been down the road on HEUI pump failure , many many times and  disreguard
most talk that cannot be backed up with fact. In most cases HEUI pumps are changed
out because mechanic do not understand  how a HEUI pump works, second there is
a real good return of money at around $ 3,500 for pump plus labor and who can dispute
Once pump was removed. Looking back on earlier post above yours a person had bad
HEUI pump at camping world  and after the new HEUI pump was installed engine would
not run and after two weeks they still could not figure out the problem. Scroll up a few post
I think it should be still there. Hope again I have helped you out and get with Brett on
The oil break down. Dave Atherton Retired Cat Mechanic

Offline Brett Wolfe

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Re: HEUI Pump
« Reply #12 on: August 06, 2015, 06:32:10 AM »
Here are Caterpillar's recommendations for oil quantity and change interval:

 Lubrication Systems
Only add oil when the level is at or below the add mark[/b]

3116 / 3126 / 3126B / 3126E / C7      Oil Capacity       Sump            Miles/Years
Serial Number Prefix                     (inc filter)      
1WM                                            19 qts(18 L)      Shallow            6,000 Miles / 1Year

1WM                                            29 qts(27L)       Deep           10,000 Miles / 1 Year
 
CKM,7AS,8YL,HEP                        22 qts(21 L)     Shallow           11,000 Miles / 1 Year
 
CKM,7AS,8YL,HEP                         30 qts(28 L)       Deep           15,000 Miles / 1 Year

KAL,WAX,SAP,C7S                         19 qts(18 L)    Shallow           11,000 Miles / 1 Year

KAL,WAX,SAP,C7S                     27 qts(25 L)         Deep          15,000 Miles / 1 Year


Nothing unusual about oil breakdown in a Caterpillar vs anything else.  Probably the largest contributor to oil breakdown that well-meaning RV owners do is start the engine WITHOUT DRIVING AT LEAST 25 HIGHWAY MILES.  I have seen people start their engine once a week and let it idle for 45 minutes all winter long.  All that does is add moisture to the crankcase.

As far as oil viscosity, unless you are in a really extreme climate, a good 15-40 diesel oil is what you need.  I like a quality oil I can find everywhere/at Walmart.  So, Shell Rotella T 15-40 or Delo 400 15-40 come to mind.

Offline David.e.atherton

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Re: HEUI Pump
« Reply #13 on: August 06, 2015, 06:52:26 AM »
Gentleman, in reviewing your last and questions. Forget to answer the question about the KAL
and SAP s/n but answered in my first reply that question. One thing I might add you are talking
Cat  C-7 engine. This is the latest Cat engine and has a very excellent history. Sometimes problems
happens not because engine is problem but many other factors that can make engine the fall
Guy . ( with motorhome people it is all about money. ) most problems a person will find are very
minor like part cost $ 135.00 for sensor but repair shop today cannot make any money that way.
These same engines run trouble free for 15,000 hours and longer before we overhaul engine and
frankly have not heard of all these problems ( mainly HEUI pumps ) except in motorhomes to me
Throws up a flag.
You mentioned also going with a Cummins engine, the Cummins ISC would be the same as C-7
and also has a electronic injection system called a CAPS system. You have heard thoughts on
down fall on Cat engine injection system (HEUI SYSTEM) but you need to go a little deeper and
Review the Cummins ISC CAPS injection system. You are going to find out this has and still is a very
problem filled event and very costly. Only the problem was never corrected.
Going back to buying a Diesel engine in a motorhome as compared in other operations these
engines work. It's like a race horse retired and turned out to pasture, engines just run and run.
Sometimes there is way too much information that all it is information about Diesel engines,
You just have to decide what you want and who you want to listen from on your choice.
Dave Atherton Retired Cat Mechanic

Offline Gentleman Adventurer

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Re: HEUI Pump
« Reply #14 on: August 06, 2015, 10:47:02 PM »
Quote
You just have to decide what you want and who you want to listen from on your choice.


First of all I will point out, I asked these questions in a specific forum, run by a guy (Brett)  who is acknowledged to be pretty smart about these motors. 2nd, I picked this thread because a CAT mechanic replied to it. 3rd, I wish to thank both of you for taking the time to help those of us through a learning curve.

I've spent most of my life maintaining and flying some of Uncle Sam's expensive helicopters. I try to be selective on what I ask and where I ask it. That time has taught me a couple things. 
Preventive Maintenance is important.
Better yet, don't let things just sit, that causes more problems than regular use.
Finally, you only get to pick 2 of the 3 top maintenance principles: Good, Fast, Cheap You can't have all 3 on the same project.  Me, I fall into the do the job once correctly, because I really do not want to do it over.

Brett;
Thanks for the lube chart. I've been reading about the oil being "sheared" by the high pressure pump.
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/oilshear.htm
http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/604986-heui-system-injectors-good-write-up.html

Seems like some of the Pickup truck diesel guys are reducing the oil change interval about 33% from 7500 miles to 500 miles, considering it severe duty
Also, it seems like a good idea to use CAT specific filters from what I've read.

Any CAT guidance on the subject?
I probably won't get 11,000 miles a year anyway. Any thoughts on an oil analysis program being able to control the change interval?

Thanks again
Keith

Offline Brett Wolfe

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Re: HEUI Pump
« Reply #15 on: August 07, 2015, 05:40:20 AM »
Keith,

With the relative inexpensiveness of a case of oil, most just change annually.  Yes, an oil sampling would give you the ability to extend that if the sampling proved good.

Offline David.e.atherton

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Re: HEUI Pump
« Reply #16 on: August 07, 2015, 01:36:05 PM »
Keith and Brett, just a little more info on Cat C-7 and a Ford Powerstroke Heui System.
Ford has a joint engine build by NAVSTAR and Cat  Heui injection system along with
cat A model Heui injectors. Point I want to make out is the ford  Heui  injection system is
different build as compared to the Cat C-7 Heui system. The Ford Heui pump is a little
Rex- Ross gear pump that is not made any more and ford can get only a Bosch  reman
Heui pump. Cat uses a variable pitch piston pump with a built accumulator that maintains
Cat engine oil pressure until the Heui pump increases to system pressure to injectors.
The Cat C-7 the engine oil is filtered  than goes through oil cooler bypass and up to the Heui pump accumulator housing. The Heui pump has a what is called in hydraulic terms is a
electric solenoid dump valve which sends high pressure oil to the injectors, it is call the
Injector actuation pressure control  regulator. What turns on this IAPCR valve is  what is
called a IAP sensor ( injection actuation pressure sensor )  this is also on the Ford Heui
system also. This control valve and injection pressure are controlled via engine ECM.
Where all the problems happen that require Heui Pumps to be replaced because most
Mechanic's remove the injection actuation pressure sensor and install a 10,000 psi gauge and
turn the engine over and get no oil pressure. Now Heui pump is bad ( wrong ) they forget
About the injection actuation control regulator ( this is what will let h.p. oil into the oil rail )
Cat has a very simple term what a Heui pump is, it is a second hydraulic pump and the
IAPCR valve is the only thing connected to the Heui pump. The IAP sensor is within the
oil galley in the head that calls for oil. All the excess h.p. Oil returns back to the engine oil
pan. Note: problems and failure within the Heui injection system is extended service on
oil changes, wrong types of oils that will foam and get into the h.p. oil galley . On the back
Of Heui pump C-7 there is a splined shaft (  Female coupling ) that will bolt up a little fuel
pistion pump for diesel fuel to the injectors on a Cat-7 65 psi. Again  the Cat  Heui  system
for a C-7 is very much different than the Ford Heui system even that cat made the system for
NAVSTAR. The ford system is different in quality in many different ways. Reading all the
Treads on Heui pump replacement at 40,000 , 60,000 etc. miles problem is not the Heui
Pump it is the lack of understanding problem and  how oil gets to h.p. Oil galley. In checking
For a failed Heui pump Cat had special fitting that screws into the IAPCR valve port and
Dead head oil direct off the pump. This is where the lack of training comes in. Sorry I get
carried away but again a Heui pump on a C-7 is not problematic  and service hours  with
Good care and maintenance will go min 12 to 15,000 hours
Dave Atherton Retired Cat Mechanic

Offline David.e.atherton

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Re: HEUI Pump
« Reply #17 on: August 08, 2015, 12:00:27 PM »
Brett, today I made a service call on a 3126 B model in a Freightliner single axle truck
Pulling a 40 foot king of road trailer. Problem oil line on turbo charger, but the point I
want to pass along. 2000 Freightliner 3126 B 1WM s/n  257,482 miles, bought new
and has never had any Heui system problems or Heui pump failure. Party has always
used Rotela oil  and changes at 7,500 miles. Thought passing on a good review of the
Cat 3126 B electronic engine. Dave

Offline Gentleman Adventurer

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Re: HEUI Pump
« Reply #18 on: August 09, 2015, 08:24:38 AM »
Dave/Brett;

Thanks again for the continuing information.
The Motor home went to the shop for an inspection and came back with a clean bill of health
Oil and coolant samples were taken, if those come back ok, we are going to proceed with the purchase.
Only time will tell whether we chose wisely. ;D
None the less, it's part of the adventure :)

Keith