Author Topic: Troubleshooting TS Performance MP8 with Cat C7  (Read 366 times)

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Offline Papa Dave

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Troubleshooting TS Performance MP8 with Cat C7
« on: September 03, 2018, 09:44:37 PM »
Background - My coach is a 2005 Winnie Journey w/ the Cat C7 350 engine (ser# KAL 52801).  I have been disappointed with its performance climbing grades - often slowing to 35 mph.  The attached Scangauge has been reporting max boost at 25-26 psi.  I just had an MP8 programmer installed along with a pyrometer (pre-turbo) and secondary boost sensor and gauge to monitor and avoid overworking the C7.  The MP8 does not seem to be making any difference regardless of the dial/ rheostat setting.  As I understand the MP8, with the controller set to maximum the MP8 should be telling the ECM that boost is lower than it really is and the ECM should be having the turbo be producing higher than normal boost.  My Scangauge should be reporting a lower boost reading off the J1939 port than the recently added physical boost sensor and gauge.  I should be seeing an elevated boost pressure off the pneumatic boost sensor and gauge with approximately 30% more power.  But regardless of the dial/ rheostat controller setting the boost level reported off the J1939 port and the level shown on the pneumatic gauge remain the same.  I have contacted TS Performance.  I was told by them that the MP8 wiring must have been properly connected or else I would not be able to start and operate the C7.  They are asking me to uninstall the MP8 system and send it all back to them for testing.  But before I do all that (or pay my mechanic to do so) I would like to test the rheostat dial controller.  There are three wires attached to the controller.  Can I isolate the controller and test it with an ohmmeter?  Can anyone offer me advice or some insights about this? 

Offline ziggyh

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Re: Troubleshooting TS Performance MP8 with Cat C7
« Reply #1 on: September 06, 2018, 07:43:04 PM »
Papa Dave, if the rheostat dial controller or also known as a potentiometer is simply that there will be 2 wires that have a fixed resistance regardless of where you turn the dial to, the other wire will have a varying amount of resistance from that wire to one of the two and will increase or decrease in resistance from usually 0 ohms to the value you measured between the two that are fixed. So from that common wire the resistance will increase on one of them when turning the dial from left to right and the other wire to the common will decrease in resistance when turning the dial from left to right.
  The only issue is that what the resistance spec should be may not be available.  if you can see the back of the potentiometer some oh them are marked on the back or side what their resistance is.  As you rotate and check the resistance there should be a gradual change from hi to low or low to hi with no drop out.
I attached a symoble of one to help understand.


ZiggyH

2007 Revolution LE
C9

Offline Papa Dave

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Re: Troubleshooting TS Performance MP8 with Cat C7
« Reply #2 on: September 06, 2018, 08:52:17 PM »
Thanks Ziggy, I am away from my coach for a few days but will have an opportunity next week to test the potentiometer. 

Papa Dave

Offline David.e.atherton

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Re: Troubleshooting TS Performance MP8 with Cat C7
« Reply #3 on: September 07, 2018, 12:38:58 AM »
PapaDave, understand the performance of where you are going by install aftermarket
equipment to your Cat C-7. From my stand point with Caterpillar C-7 engine it is not
recommended for several reasons ( mainly going away from spec’s with very close values
and over driving electrical components over rated values only spells failure ahead. ) just
reviewing my thoughts after reading technical information that is highly not recommended.
My suggestion before getting very deep into this program of increase performance. Can
produce hard copy about installing aftermarket equipment and break out spec value.
Ask Dave, Dave Atherton Retired Cat Mechanic

Offline John

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Re: Troubleshooting TS Performance MP8 with Cat C7
« Reply #4 on: September 08, 2018, 10:28:59 PM »
Papa Dave,

I have the same issue on my RV. 2003 CAT 3126E 40' Beaver Marquis. I bought the MP8 in May of this year and had no power increase at all, sent them the module back for repair twice now. Got my module back after (2nd repair) recently, the note in the box said replaced circuit board, rotary switch and harness checked out OK. Installed it, went for a run and still no change in power. Very frustrating.
John.

Offline David.e.atherton

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Re: Troubleshooting TS Performance MP8 with Cat C7
« Reply #5 on: September 09, 2018, 12:43:46 AM »
John, low power can come from several areas within the engine itself. Aftermarket
add on tuner to increase or correct low power is only compounding the problem. There
Is two issue present, first Caterpillar engine has been losing power ( runs ok but just
seems like it’s down on power ). Note before add on aftermarket Turner etc. Now let’s
go with issuse number two, the engine runs out fine but want more out of the engine
and installed this aftermarket product that will increase horsepower, torque and fuel
mileage. Want to relate this is a Caterpillar 3126 electronic engine, so my next question
install this aftermarket product we connect into the Caterpillar J-2 wiring harness off
the engine ECM that connect into the group of ( 5 ) five volt sensors on the engine.
The group of the ( 5 ) five volt sensors share the same signal wire to the engine ECM.
The value of this group of five volt sensors value 1/2 volt plus or minus and any change
In voltage will devalue sensors. Last with the group of the ( 5 ) five volt sensors being
the group shares the same signal to engine ECM value to one sensor will also change
Value to other sensors in this group. Again add on aftermarket products is not recommended
by Caterpillar.  Ask Dave, Dave Atherton Retired Cat Mechanic

Offline David.e.atherton

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Re: Troubleshooting TS Performance MP8 with Cat C7
« Reply #6 on: September 09, 2018, 07:32:09 AM »
Gentleman, good morning understanding spec values on your engine. Let’s talk about
The turbo charger what does it do ( gives engine more power ). How does that happen ?
Basic thoughts it a air compressor that gets it power by the exhaust exiting the engine.
The turbo charger turns twice the speed of the engine and has what is called wastegate
to control turbo rpms to prevent damage to engine. The wastegate is a little flapper on the
exhaust housing that open and closes by air chamber outside of turbocharger and pressure
off engine intake manifold. This is the part most do not understand, as turbo turns it packs
more air into the engine along with fuel. The air / fuel ratio set at factory and the turbo  wastegate is also preset by factory. Note: increasing turbo boost pressure which means turbo
wastegate will not fully open and engine rpms are being increased beyond factory setting
along with fuel rate limit which is factory pre-set. These values cannot be changed on your
caterpillar engine but you as owner have the say as to how you maintain your engine.
Ask Dave, Dave Atherton Retired Cat Mechanic

Offline John

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Re: Troubleshooting TS Performance MP8 with Cat C7
« Reply #7 on: September 09, 2018, 05:46:03 PM »
Dave,

I respect your knowledge in cat motors but we are trying to troubleshoot a TSperformance MP8 module that we spent a lot money for. I'm trying to figure out if it gives any more power like they advertise 30% increase, if it doesent work then Im returning it and getting my money back. My engine works fine and climb grades with no problem, just a little slow, thats why my self and Papa Dave want a little more ponies to go a bit faster.

Offline David.e.atherton

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Re: Troubleshooting TS Performance MP8 with Cat C7
« Reply #8 on: September 09, 2018, 07:13:08 PM »
John, thank you for your concern, however my work until retirement has been  Caterpillar
equipment. What you want to do I cannot help you because Caterpillar does not  endorse
changes to engine specs and values as I have indicated with my post with aftermarket
add on and change made to the caterpillar system. Have ran into this problem many times
with engine work that the system has been altered. What both you gentleman would like
technical information but there is no information that will tell you it is ok to where you want
to go with Caterpillar specs and values to get more out of your engine performance. Sorry
I cannot provide any information from Caterpillar to tell you it is ok to alter specs and values
along with cutting into the ECM wiring harness which not recommended. I think it would
help both of you have your aftermarket provider to get involved and also have them provide
you with paper work showing Caterpillar approved and endorsed product allowing this kind
of system changes. Last thing in following the diesel Club forum some of the cost of replacement rebuilt engines using the 3100 series engines which includes your engines has
been the $ 30,000 to 35,000 price range. I wish both of you well but sorry cannot provide
any input for you. Ask Dave, Dave Atherton Retired Cat Mechanic

Offline antiqueclockservice

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Re: Troubleshooting TS Performance MP8 with Cat C7
« Reply #9 on: September 10, 2018, 06:58:40 AM »
Hi,

Diesel engines are smoke limited...that means the most power they can make is when the exhaust is coal black...it would apper this module is supposed to increase the fuel injected into the cylinder but is not doing so.  Most likely this would be done by increasing the injector pulse width.  Do not know if it also changes injector timing.... Maybe turbo waste gate?  No power increase until you get more fuel in the cylinder..

Assuming you are successful in getting the module to work, you will face the fact that there is more heat of rejection from the engine....is your cooling system up to handling the added heat?  Likely not...   It is also likely that bottom end of the motor is not designed for the increased power, but a mild boost might not be too bad. 

I was an Engineer at Ford Light Truck for some 30 years and one of my takeaways of my career is that folks that change the parameters of the vehicles we designed and tested often got burned...  Example is these aftermarket lift kits for 4x4s...Totally changes the vehicle dynamics..handling goes into the toilet...so looks cool until you have to make an emergency maneuver and the adverse handling catches you out...

I support Dave in don't screw with your ride...

best,
Phil

Best,
Phil

Offline ziggyh

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Re: Troubleshooting TS Performance MP8 with Cat C7
« Reply #10 on: September 10, 2018, 08:01:37 PM »
I believe the module plugs in between the IAP sensor and the boost sensor to skew the readings to up boost pressure and IAP. Having talked to people who have had one installed they indicated that there was a slight increase in power and a noticeable increase in fuel consumption, you need more fuel for more HP, but that may also be subject to a bit of driving habit.

I would agree that the cooling system is at or near its max capacity. I think the c7 itself may also be maxed out in it's capabilities and boosting its HP will come at a cost of engine life, but then again it's not mine to worry about.

I think what Dave is saying that when the ECM reaches its programmed rated fuel limit, the skewing of the boost and ICP reading will not help in increasing fuel delivery because the ECM is programmed not to exceed that limit.



ZiggyH

2007 Revolution LE
C9