Author Topic: Revisiting hard starting Cold And Flash codes  (Read 1160 times)

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Offline willsonrick

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Revisiting hard starting Cold And Flash codes
« on: October 29, 2019, 11:19:13 AM »
Dave ,
  I have a 3126B, Serial 7AS15350.

I know we covered most of this last spring but I have gone thru every item that I can think of to get to finding an air leak. I wrapped all the connections in yellow teflon tape on the suction side of the fuel pump and the fuel pressure regulator.  Have not redone the high pressre side

I still get a stream of whitish foamy looking fuel out during the  test at the fuel regulator.  It clears up,  but the fuel looks cloudy or foggy for the remainder of the test.  I set the sample aside overnight and the only thing that settled out was some white globs of stuff that settled to the bottom of the jar. The rest still looks cloudy.

Once started the first time in the day,the thing starts like normal. 

Along with this I am getting Flash codes 15,39,51.  I disconnected  the IAP sensor and it started.  I know that means the sensor is bad, but I just replaced it last March.  I cleaned up the battery, IAP sensor, and ECM connections with contact cleaner and reassembled.  I also took apart the injector harness connector and cleaned that. 

Started this AM with difficulty.  Same stream of foamy stuff, cloudy fuel AND same codes 15,39,51 plus  74(injector 4) 
Check engine light flashes every 5 sec while running.  It has not done that before.  Even with the earlier codes.

Took it for a very short drive,  runs rough under acceleration but seems good when off the pedal.  Made it home again same codes.

I may have messed up the reconnect on the injector harness, but I am concerned about the persistent codes and the air leak.

I may have more than 1 problem going and am at a loss.  Any help would be appreciated.  Attached is a couple pic of the fuel coming from fuel pressure regulator.Or just tell me to to Cat Dealer.

Thanks

Rick Willson





Rick Willson, 1998 Safari Sahara Model 3006, 3126 300 hp

Offline ziggyh

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Re: Revisiting hard starting Cold And Flash codes
« Reply #1 on: October 29, 2019, 07:35:55 PM »
Well the fuel sample sure doesn't look like clean diesel fuel.
If I was trying to rule out a suction side leak from the inlet of the pump I would try running the engine from a fuel supply can and hose straight to the inlet to see if that clears up the airated fuel.
ZiggyH

2007 Revolution LE
C9

Offline willsonrick

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Re: Revisiting hard starting Cold And Flash codes
« Reply #2 on: October 30, 2019, 07:12:47 AM »
The fuel coming from the bottom of the primary fuel filter looks clean and clear.  when the see tru bowl is drained the fuel also looks good.

Thanks for the idea.

Rick
Rick Willson, 1998 Safari Sahara Model 3006, 3126 300 hp

Offline David.e.atherton

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Re: Revisiting hard starting Cold And Flash codes
« Reply #3 on: October 30, 2019, 09:30:47 AM »
Rick, yes without question problem with fuel quality and entry of air into fuel system. Few
Questions, first install clear line at the return fuel pressure regulator location at rear of engine head ( note you will see a elbow with a hex fitting about 3 inches long with a fuel hose attached
and facing toward passenger side ). Remove hose and install clear plastic line over male end
and run plastic tube into a container. Start engine up and run there should not be any air
bubbles in the fuel except a little trail of pin size bubbles. Next speed engine up and hold steady
Rpms at 1/2 for two minutes again no air bubbles , than same at 3/4 rpms same thing. This
Test will tell us and lead you to your problem. Do this test let me know your findings .
Ask Dave, Dave Atherton Retired Cat Mechanic

Offline willsonrick

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Re: Revisiting hard starting Cold And Flash codes
« Reply #4 on: October 30, 2019, 09:56:37 AM »
Dave,

The photos I attached are the results of doing that test.  While doing the test the first 6-10 inches of the flow had the white foam and then quickly turned to the cloudy fuel.  Didn't see air after though.  Ran engine for 3-4 minutes and the cloudyness did not clear up. Thanks.   The coach started well after that. Started but did not runs so good when on throttle. All the flash codes are still the same, 15, 39,51 and 74.   

I do have a separate question about flash codes.  They only display when running, does that mean they are active at that point in time or could they be from earlier?

Thanks
Rick
Rick Willson, 1998 Safari Sahara Model 3006, 3126 300 hp

Offline David.e.atherton

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Re: Revisiting hard starting Cold And Flash codes
« Reply #5 on: October 30, 2019, 11:36:00 AM »
Rick, breakout of the following flash codes, number 15 Injection Actuation Pressure Sensor
Circuit Fault,  low power Derate engine speed, service engine,  number 39 Injection Actuation
Pressure System Fault, low power, engine shut down, engine service,  number 51 intermittent
Battery power to ECM,  engine misfire, low power, engine shut down , engine service, number
74 cylinder 5 Fault or cylinder 6 Fault,  engine misfire , low power, engine service. What I’m
seeing breaking out flash codes is over due engine service. Note with Heui Injection systems
engine oil will sludge and sticky injectors and other engine components. Last would suggest
Taking engine oil samples at engine service times. Ask Dave, Dave Atherton Retired Cat
Mechanic

Offline willsonrick

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Re: Revisiting hard starting Cold And Flash codes
« Reply #6 on: October 31, 2019, 06:20:54 AM »
Dave
We only have about 3000 miles on this oil and the fuel filters have less than 500 miles.  I have been fighting this since before the last oil change after the engine overheated.    Once started and running the engine runs good and starts good the rest of the day.  I did not have the 74 code until I cleaned the connectors.  I am due to change the oil anyway.  I don't see the connection  between the oil and fuel side causing cloudy fuel and air in the system.   Even after sitting in container for 3 days the cloudiness is still there and the white stuff has turned brown and stays at the bottom..  Would a Cat dealer be able to analyze the fuel?  Thanks again.


Rick Willson, 1998 Safari Sahara Model 3006, 3126 300 hp

Offline David.e.atherton

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Re: Revisiting hard starting Cold And Flash codes
« Reply #7 on: October 31, 2019, 07:37:57 AM »
wilsonrick, we need to understand I’m not challenging you on your service operations, however
I did take the effort to look in to the flash codes on Caterpillar SIS technical information and
I did not make any personal views other than relating factual information forward . You can believe and address problem whatever you feel you thoughts take you. Taking oil sample at
service due times would have answered technical information Dave had posted for you from
again factual source. Ask Dave, Dave Atherton Retired Cat Mechanic

Offline willsonrick

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Re: Revisiting hard starting Cold And Flash codes
« Reply #8 on: October 31, 2019, 01:04:43 PM »
Dave, 

I was not challenged or offended. I know you know more than I will ever know about these engines.  I was mostly curious as to how that recommendation came about.  I was also attempting to update you on the current service record, since I failed to pass that info to you earlier..   I am due to change the oil and have no reservations about following your recommendations.  I haven't in the past taken oil samples but I can certainly start.

I am a little concerned about the cloudy fuel and the residue.  To go way back to last summer, these problems did not happen until after we overheated and derated on the highway coming home from the Safari Reunion.   

My thoughts to proceed with the service as you recommend and  reconnect the Injector harness and ECM connectors to see if I bent a pin or something.   If this doesn't clear up the symptoms,  may I reconnect with you as to further steps.?  I do appreciate the effort you put in to help me  and I do and will not worry about you chewing me out.  Thanks

Rick Willson
Rick Willson, 1998 Safari Sahara Model 3006, 3126 300 hp

Offline ziggyh

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Re: Revisiting hard starting Cold And Flash codes
« Reply #9 on: November 10, 2019, 04:19:58 PM »
Clean Fuel
ZiggyH

2007 Revolution LE
C9

Offline willsonrick

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Re: Revisiting hard starting Cold And Flash codes
« Reply #10 on: November 12, 2019, 06:13:33 AM »
Thanks for the pic.
This looks like the fuel I get out of the primary filter drain.  I am going to Cat dealer to pic up filters for service and plan on showing them the cloudy sample I pulled off the fuel pressure regulator.

I think I am dealing with more than one problem.  I figure to do the service like Dave said, the connections and proceed from there.

Rick Willson
Rick Willson, 1998 Safari Sahara Model 3006, 3126 300 hp

Offline ziggyh

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Re: Revisiting hard starting Cold And Flash codes
« Reply #11 on: November 12, 2019, 05:01:41 PM »
Airated fuel clears up after it sits, if clean is going in and you get something different comming out you only have 2 sources of contamination, oil and antifreeze. Oil would darken the fuel. Antifreeze is what I would suspect based on the sample but that is just a guess. Cat sos should be able to identify what is in the bottle. Fluid analysis is not limited to oil and an inexpensive test to help provide awnsers.

The question in my mind that is puzzling is if that is what is returning to the tank eventually that should be comming out.
ZiggyH

2007 Revolution LE
C9

Offline David.e.atherton

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Re: Revisiting hard starting Cold And Flash codes
« Reply #12 on: November 12, 2019, 11:48:49 PM »
wilsonrick, I would suggest if things do not straighten out engine run out. Look real close
at the flash code number 39 ( Injection Actuation Pressure System Fault. ) this is the
IAPR Regulator inside of HEUI pump housing that is a non- service part that requires
Exchange replacement. Ask Dave, Dave Atherton Retired Cat Mechanic.

Offline willsonrick

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Re: Revisiting hard starting Cold And Flash codes
« Reply #13 on: November 14, 2019, 06:24:29 AM »
Thanks Dave,

I was at local Cat dealer picking up filters and the service manager said  based on the flash codes I gave them something might not be right with the HEUI system. 

Am I looking at breaking open another piggy bank to fix that?  Either way it's going to get fixed.  Test drive today if it starts.
Rick Willson, 1998 Safari Sahara Model 3006, 3126 300 hp

Offline willsonrick

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Re: Revisiting hard starting Cold And Flash codes
« Reply #14 on: November 14, 2019, 08:05:19 AM »
Update after test start and drive.

I cleared the active check engine by reconnecting the injector harness near the valve cover.  apparently I had done some thing 
wrong when I cleaned it.

After changing the oil yesterday, I cold started this AM. Temp outside 30 degrees F.  It started way better than yesterday but still ragged with a great deal of white smoke.  It cleared up and seemed to run normally.   It restarted after initial start easily and normal.   
Test drive was completely normal.

Just as a check, I disconnected the IAP sensor and it still started.  I just replaced it last spring. Can these thing go bad that quickly?
I'm thinking it might be time to get a full diagnostic check at The Cat dealer????


Thanks again
Rick Willson, 1998 Safari Sahara Model 3006, 3126 300 hp

Offline willsonrick

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Re: Revisiting hard starting Cold And Flash codes
« Reply #15 on: November 21, 2019, 03:43:34 PM »
Taking into local Cat dealer on tuesday for e reader scan.  Will take sample of fuel for them to check also. Hoping for a clear direction to go.

Thanks for the help so far.
Rick
Rick Willson, 1998 Safari Sahara Model 3006, 3126 300 hp

Offline willsonrick

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Re: Revisiting hard starting Cold And Flash codes UPdate
« Reply #16 on: November 28, 2019, 08:07:19 AM »
Took the rig into CAT. Hooked up e reader and got 164-03 and 04 codes. Investigated  further and tested the wiring to the IAP sensor and the sensor itself.  The wiring to the sensor checked out good, the sensor checked out bad.

I showed the the sample of fuel I had pulled earlier and the head scratching Started.   They kept the rig overnight and next morning verified the hard starting.  The supervisor checked the radiator by removing the cap and got a strong scent of varnish and diesel. 

He was thinking that we need to check all the injectors for a cracked seat.  He had looked at all the logged codes and did not see the old one for the overheating incident last year.  I had them delete them when I had the valves adjusted earlier this fall.  (Dave A is aboslutley right about "never" deleting old codes.)

I told the tech that it had over heated and derated a year ago August and he started thinking in another direction.  Head Gasket or cracked block.   I was hoping O-rings. Won't know until Monday about the estimated damage to my wallet.    Thought an update might be useful.  Happy Thanksgiving
Rick Willson, 1998 Safari Sahara Model 3006, 3126 300 hp

Offline ziggyh

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Re: Revisiting hard starting Cold And Flash codes
« Reply #17 on: November 28, 2019, 07:24:36 PM »
I would suspect the injector cups or sleeves o-rings leaking before a cracked block,head, or seat. The most common place where the 2 fluids passages are beside each other and can leak to each other is there because of failed O-rings.



ZiggyH

2007 Revolution LE
C9

Offline David.e.atherton

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Re: Revisiting hard starting Cold And Flash codes
« Reply #18 on: November 29, 2019, 02:26:29 AM »
willsonrick, my thoughts are in agreement with ziggyh, cracked copper sleeve in engine
head. I have seen many people experienced this problem. Give you some thoughts ahead,
if perhaps copper sleeve failed this used to be a field repair but not any more you have to remove engine head and it is sent out for copper sleeves install. Note if you do the install of
injectors which the event code 164 -4 indicates, back into your engine head to get current
technical information on correct injector install. ( this is very important and a injector failure
area of concern.) if engine head is cracked as they possible indicated or want to rework and
rebuild your head along all new copper injector sleeves. Price for a reman loaded head is
around $ 2,100 to $ 2,800. Than you will need to buy the head gasket set. Caterpillar is
going to recommend set of reman Cat injectors. Parts alone your looking at around $ 5,000.
This will give you idea of cost if you attempt to repair yourself. Same time get a price from
Caterpillar for doing repair.. Ask Dave,Dave Atherton Retired Cat Mechanic

Offline willsonrick

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Re: Revisiting hard starting Cold And Flash codes
« Reply #19 on: November 29, 2019, 05:56:40 AM »
Thanks Ziggy and Dave. Good info for going forward.  I'm pretty sure Cat is going down the Replacing cups and o rings path.  I can only hope. I watched a you-tube of Cup replacement.  It looked relatively easy  to do in a shop with the right tools.  I imagine it's going to be a lot harder under the bed of a motor home.

Anyway Thanks Again.
Rick
Rick Willson, 1998 Safari Sahara Model 3006, 3126 300 hp

Offline David.e.atherton

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Re: Revisiting hard starting Cold And Flash codes
« Reply #20 on: November 29, 2019, 07:16:30 AM »
willsonrick, my suggestion what you are thinking about replacement of copper injector sleeves
would not be a cost saving investment. It takes a special box of tooling that cost more money
than buying a loaded head from Caterpillar. Second this operation is not for a novice and
way above level of UTube video. This is a suggestion,not a demeanor or down grade to your
mechanic skills. Yes, I know that repairs get costly and your a trying to do your best to save
some money. Buy a loaded reman engine from Caterpillar or a used take off engine head or
have Caterpillar do the job. This is not a easy task and only for experience trained Caterpillar
Mechanics. Ask Dave, Dave Atherton Retired Cat Mechanic

Offline willsonrick

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Re: Revisiting hard starting Cold And Flash codes
« Reply #21 on: November 29, 2019, 11:23:14 AM »
Dave,  I am at best a shade tree mechanic and thoroughly agree with you about letting the pros do this.  Saving money is not the priority here, getting fixed is.   Thanks again for the input.

Rick
Rick Willson, 1998 Safari Sahara Model 3006, 3126 300 hp

Offline ziggyh

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Re: Revisiting hard starting Cold And Flash codes
« Reply #22 on: November 29, 2019, 08:23:55 PM »
Rick your right, it's an easy job on the bench and doing the work looks easy as usual on a u tube vid. and in vehicle may most certainly present a few challenges with a few of the sleeves as far as access goes, its looks easy to pull out the old sleeve with the right tooling and pound in a new sleeve watching someone doing it on a video but life is different in vehicle.  You have now idea how heavy the head is and how awkward it is to remove  the head even with the right equipment on most RV applications. The cylinder head weighs about 400 pounds.  The right tools are just under a foot long and cost about 4-500 dollars and you would need room to swing a hammer to install the sleeves. Its easy to make a removal tool but the install tool is a bit more of a challenge. While the head is off it can be inspected and pressure tested for leakage but my money would be on failed O-rings on the sleeves.

Please post the outcome..
ZiggyH

2007 Revolution LE
C9

Offline willsonrick

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Re: Revisiting hard starting Cold And Flash codes
« Reply #23 on: Yesterday at 12:46:24 PM »
  Dave and Ziggy.

After discussion with the service manager : The injector cups and seals will be replaced.  Cooling system flush to clean out the fuel and the hoses and thermostat inspected and replaced as necessary.  Since the IAP sensor checked bad, that will be replaced also.  Barring any surprises that should do the trick.  I hope.  The bill is going to be around $4500. 00. 

Will keep you posted.  Thanks for helping.
Rick Willson, 1998 Safari Sahara Model 3006, 3126 300 hp

Offline ziggyh

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Re: Revisiting hard starting Cold And Flash codes
« Reply #24 on: Yesterday at 06:39:44 PM »
Rick, if fuel was getting into the coolant then coolant can be getting into the fuel when the engine is off and the coolant system still has pressure in it which is carried back to the tank, If that were my RV I would take a sample of fuel from the bottom of the fuel tank, the coolant will settle on the bottom. There should be a drain plug on the bottom of the fuel tank to check.  Should there be coolant in the tank and draining it is not an option, a fuel polishing service might be an alternative.
ZiggyH

2007 Revolution LE
C9